Men Beneath the Ruins

A documentary on Edward Bernays, the father of propaganda and public relations, and the ways corporations manipulate us to become empty, weak-willed consumers.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind." -Edward Bernays

Mister Han Man wrote:I don't get why people talk about Freudian psychoanalysis like it was some great fucking breakthrough. So what, he discovered that people secretly like to fuck and kill. Well who didn't know that already? He also discovered that people are irrational. No fucking shit, that's why they have to be taught rationality.

What do you mean I'm not rational? I am liberal/conservative/Scientologist
and I don't understand why you are trying to go without Disney for a year. Thats Un-American!
You just hate people to say they are irrational! They naturally good people!


I know this came out of the blue but its the typical response of someone who tells others to be rational. The Disney part came from the guy who wanted to be Disney free for a year and got hate mail because of it. Who posted that?

One can claim rationality all they want, but I think it is better to focus on how people can be manipulated so their resistance to it becomes higher. The result is a more rational person or a person more open to reason.


And yes, Freud said what people wanted to do and who doesn't know that. Its like common sense written down as science. But he is considered the father of modern psychology and that science has lead to some not so common nonsensical ideas on how people are.

For example, you would think people would be more motivated if they were offered higher financial incentives to do a better job. It turns out that is not the case. It seems the more work a person does, the less you pay that person, the more dedicated to their job they become.

Edit: What I am getting at is the culture we have which led to the political system we have is the result (and unfortunate fallout) of the marketing techniques based on psychological principles (supposedly created by Freud) used in everyday life and in every facet of society. That what I think the article in the OP is getting at.

Mister Han Man wrote:I don't get why people talk about Freudian psychoanalysis like it was some great fucking breakthrough. So what, he discovered that people secretly like to fuck and kill. Well who didn't know that already? He also discovered that people are irrational. No fucking shit, that's why they have to be taught rationality.

As I understand it (very little), Freud's breakthrough was the idea that mental problems could be solved by talking. He was the first credible person to suggest that asking questions and causing the patient to talk about their own problems could actually be a cure in itself, rather than just a diagnostic technique.

Mister Han Man wrote:Probably because "rational" today has no meaning apart from "correct."

I'm rational (right) and you're irrational (wrong.)

Agreed. What do you think of the idea if there is a high amount of irrationality in society, its a sign of mass manipulation taken too strong of a hold upon society?
Rational people do not act in ways that are against their interests. Irrational people will do anything in their power for the benefit of some one else, but at their own expense. For example, people keep voting in people who have shown time after time they care nothing about the citizens, but they keep electing them anyways.

Mister Han Man wrote:

BrokenToad wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:Probably because "rational" today has no meaning apart from "correct."

I'm rational (right) and you're irrational (wrong.)

Agreed. What do you think of the idea if there is a high amount of irrationality in society, its a sign of mass manipulation taken too strong of a hold upon society?
Rational people do not act in ways that are against their interests. Irrational people will do anything in their power for the benefit of some one else, but at their own expense. For example, people keep voting in people who have shown time after time they care nothing about the citizens, but they keep electing them anyways.

You can compel a rational person to behave against his interests by inducing him to believe that his interests are not his interests and that he has other interests. For example making Americans believe that they love Israel more than the United States in defiance of all reason and logic.

Advertising, Public Relations and Hypnotism all work on the same principle. They're the same thing really. Decisions, all decisions are made irrationally based on subconscious instincts and impressions. Always. Once a decision has been made people's reason kicks in to lay the track, so to speak, from A to B. To provide justification in case anyone asks him what they're doing. The route doesn't really matter and doesn't have to be all that reasonable at all.

All the advertiser needs to do is create an impression or association that the target will find desirable. Cigarettes with sex, or whatever. Everyone here knows how this works. He creates the image, he leaves the rationalizing to you.

This isn't an "I'm smart, you're brainwashed" argument either. Ask a hypnotist. The smarter people are the easier they are to hypnotize because they are better and quicker at providing rationalization for their actions. I'm sure everyone has had the experience of arguing with someone they know was flat wrong, and watch them construct new rational supports for their position as the old ones get knocked down.

Observe also how it's always dumb people like rednecks and minorities who can never be brought into line with the well-educated city-dwellers. Dumb people are just plain harder to manipulate. Stupidity in this case is a distinct advantage.

I am not disagreeing with you on this.

What would happen to America if the 24/7 mass media and persuasion machine was turned off?

Mister Han Man wrote:

birdfucker.mp3 wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:I don't get why people talk about Freudian psychoanalysis like it was some great fucking breakthrough. So what, he discovered that people secretly like to fuck and kill. Well who didn't know that already? He also discovered that people are irrational. No fucking shit, that's why they have to be taught rationality.

As I understand it (very little), Freud's breakthrough was the idea that mental problems could be solved by talking. He was the first credible person to suggest that asking questions and causing the patient to talk about their own problems could actually be a cure in itself, rather than just a diagnostic technique.

Isn't that essentially what confession is?

Priests do not prescribe coke to their confessors. Hence the reason return customers are at an all time low.

Mister Han Man wrote:

BrokenToad wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:

BrokenToad wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:Probably because "rational" today has no meaning apart from "correct."

I'm rational (right) and you're irrational (wrong.)

Agreed. What do you think of the idea if there is a high amount of irrationality in society, its a sign of mass manipulation taken too strong of a hold upon society?
Rational people do not act in ways that are against their interests. Irrational people will do anything in their power for the benefit of some one else, but at their own expense. For example, people keep voting in people who have shown time after time they care nothing about the citizens, but they keep electing them anyways.

You can compel a rational person to behave against his interests by inducing him to believe that his interests are not his interests and that he has other interests. For example making Americans believe that they love Israel more than the United States in defiance of all reason and logic.

Advertising, Public Relations and Hypnotism all work on the same principle. They're the same thing really. Decisions, all decisions are made irrationally based on subconscious instincts and impressions. Always. Once a decision has been made people's reason kicks in to lay the track, so to speak, from A to B. To provide justification in case anyone asks him what they're doing. The route doesn't really matter and doesn't have to be all that reasonable at all.

All the advertiser needs to do is create an impression or association that the target will find desirable. Cigarettes with sex, or whatever. Everyone here knows how this works. He creates the image, he leaves the rationalizing to you.

This isn't an "I'm smart, you're brainwashed" argument either. Ask a hypnotist. The smarter people are the easier they are to hypnotize because they are better and quicker at providing rationalization for their actions. I'm sure everyone has had the experience of arguing with someone they know was flat wrong, and watch them construct new rational supports for their position as the old ones get knocked down.

Observe also how it's always dumb people like rednecks and minorities who can never be brought into line with the well-educated city-dwellers. Dumb people are just plain harder to manipulate. Stupidity in this case is a distinct advantage.

I am not disagreeing with you on this.

What would happen to America if the 24/7 mass media and persuasion machine was turned off?

I can only tell you what it did to me. After a year I stopped wanting things, and after several years I didn't know what was fashionable or even what was available for purchase.

That's why I'm apparently stuck in the mid-90s with unfashionable eyeglasses.

I also have no impulse to buy things anymore. At all. I remember years ago whenever I was bored the first thing that would occur to me is that I should go out and buy shit. Any shit. CDs if I couldn't think of anything better.

It always gave me a buzz. God knows why, 90% of the time the CDs were no fucking good. These days it's the opposite--I'm overcome with guilt whenever I buy anything, even things I need, and I have to convince myself that the purchase is actually necessary.

I personally think there would be riots in the street if the mass media, internet and all other forms of propagation were to disappear.

Mister Han Man wrote:

BrokenToad wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:Probably because "rational" today has no meaning apart from "correct."

I'm rational (right) and you're irrational (wrong.)

Agreed. What do you think of the idea if there is a high amount of irrationality in society, its a sign of mass manipulation taken too strong of a hold upon society?
Rational people do not act in ways that are against their interests. Irrational people will do anything in their power for the benefit of some one else, but at their own expense. For example, people keep voting in people who have shown time after time they care nothing about the citizens, but they keep electing them anyways.

You can compel a rational person to behave against his interests by inducing him to believe that his interests are not his interests and that he has other interests. For example making Americans believe that they love Israel more than the United States in defiance of all reason and logic.

Advertising, Public Relations and Hypnotism all work on the same principle. They're the same thing really. Decisions, all decisions are made irrationally based on subconscious instincts and impressions. Always. Once a decision has been made people's reason kicks in to lay the track, so to speak, from A to B. To provide justification in case anyone asks him what they're doing. The route doesn't really matter and doesn't have to be all that reasonable at all.

All the advertiser needs to do is create an impression or association that the target will find desirable. Cigarettes with sex, or whatever. Everyone here knows how this works. He creates the image, he leaves the rationalizing to you.

This isn't an "I'm smart, you're brainwashed" argument either. Ask a hypnotist. The smarter people are the easier they are to hypnotize because they are better and quicker at providing rationalization for their actions. I'm sure everyone has had the experience of arguing with someone they know was flat wrong, and watch them construct new rational supports for their position as the old ones get knocked down.

Observe also how it's always dumb people like rednecks and minorities who can never be brought into line with the well-educated city-dwellers. Dumb people are just plain harder to manipulate. Stupidity in this case is a distinct advantage.

hangly, please do me a favor and never go into sales, i wouldn't want to be responsible for you starving when i could do something to avoid it

first of all, suggestion and manipulation are two totally different things. suggestion/hypnotism is nothing more than affecting someone's fancy and mood, whereas manipulation is getting them to defend an argument that you have presumably influenced them to do. corona commercials with a young attractive couple being on the beach are attempting #1, while PSAs for drunk driving or spousal abuse etc are attempting #2, but this is splitting hairs so w/e

the fact of the matter is that intelligence has practically no bearing on how susceptible to manipulation someone is, and...everyone is susceptible to some degree, you just have to figure out what they best respond to. for instance, yes intelligent people (or those that think they are) are more likely to rationalize things later, but they usually require a much more elaborate set of bullshit. take the prius, completely stupid idea, will end up costing tens of thousands more in maintenance in the long run, but to the "smart" people who can figure out what mpg costs them in terms of gasoline savings and who think they understand global warming science, it's a hook. to cletus the construction worker you pimp out features, hauling capacity, durability and "rugged look" because he wants to be all man and be able to pull fag cars out of ditches and transport lumber (whether or not it will ever happen) to show off what a rugged individualist he is. for niggers it's real simple the shinier, the more outrageous features that will work for the first 30 days and the louder the radio plays the better, end of story.

even tne's not immune to this btw, why do you think everyone reads zerohedge and denninger instead of the more mainstream blogs like calculated risk and naked capitalism (besides the fact yves smith is a socialist queer that is) or even mish? because they're not big proponents of the niggerpocalypse where we'll get to see chicago, LA, detroit etc burn down on live webcam when the economic crisis reaches a head

Mister Han Man wrote:

George 'Hannibal' Peppard wrote:hangly, please do me a favor and never go into sales, i wouldn't want to be responsible for you starving when i could do something to avoid it

I work in advertising and I'm good at it. Kindly suck it.

LOLOLOLOL advertising and sales are about as similar as moon rocks and pine tar. you make a pretty picture, sales sells it. also the gooks are about 35 years behind us in advertising too so i'm not sure i'd be fluffing that on the resume

Indie Cred wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:

Indie Cred wrote:you guys are retarded. For every one sucessful ad campaign there are a ton that failed.

Why is that important?

proves that your whole "tell people they need what they don't need" is flawed. Advertising is like throwing shit on a wall and seeing what sticks.

If I lived around you for 24/7 telling you are a great person. You would evently believe it.

Same if I told you if you were a dick 24/7.

Point is, its not the quality of the advertising, its the fact there so much and its non stop. It will have an effect.

Mister Han Man wrote:

George 'Hannibal' Peppard wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:

George 'Hannibal' Peppard wrote:hangly, please do me a favor and never go into sales, i wouldn't want to be responsible for you starving when i could do something to avoid it

I work in advertising and I'm good at it. Kindly suck it.

LOLOLOLOL advertising and sales are about as similar as moon rocks and pine tar. you make a pretty picture, sales sells it. also the gooks are about 35 years behind us in advertising too so i'm not sure i'd be fluffing that on the resume

So are you in sales then or are you talking out your ass again?

no because i would be a poor to middling sales guy, i don't have as casual an attitude and i don't think the world owes me a living both which are absolutely necessary to excel. however someone i roomed with for about 3 years was probably the best natural born salesman i've ever met and i learned a lot from him. also known lots of other sales guys but this guy in particular was just born to do it, i think he's been #1 sales guy at his dealership for the last couple years now

Mister Han Man wrote:

birdfucker.mp3 wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:I don't get why people talk about Freudian psychoanalysis like it was some great fucking breakthrough. So what, he discovered that people secretly like to fuck and kill. Well who didn't know that already? He also discovered that people are irrational. No fucking shit, that's why they have to be taught rationality.

As I understand it (very little), Freud's breakthrough was the idea that mental problems could be solved by talking. He was the first credible person to suggest that asking questions and causing the patient to talk about their own problems could actually be a cure in itself, rather than just a diagnostic technique.

Isn't that essentially what confession is?

Part of why Freud was so great was the notion that behavior was causal, stemming from.... somewhere earlier in the person's development (his actual ideas about where that somewhere was have since been disproven, hence the hedge on my part).

Prior to Freud, childhood was not considered to be a developmental period like we understand it today. Children were expected to behave like adults, or at least be able to understand logic and reason like an adult. But as we all know today, a child can't process like an adult can due to the stages of metacognition, which are linked to the physical growth of the brain.

(Warning: generalizations ahead to prove point)

So where as confession and other less scientific methods of communication about the nature of "psychology" would focus on external influences (the nature of sin, shamanism, emperical observation, types of metals in your blood, measuring body parts), Freud was the first to link physical development, processing events in your past, and the effect on your current lifestyle.

He's like many of the ancient greek, renaissance and enlightement scholars who were the first to record observations and make theories, but weren't correct in their conclusions. He's not great because he was right, but great because he came up with an applied theory that others have turned into the foundation of modern psychology.

Indie Cred wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:

Indie Cred wrote:you guys are retarded. For every one sucessful ad campaign there are a ton that failed.

Why is that important?

proves that your whole "tell people they need what they don't need" is flawed. Advertising is like throwing shit on a wall and seeing what sticks.

Not even close. I wish I still had the copies of the material related to Gillette's campaign to introduce the Mach3. We're talking on the order of $100mil for the PR/Ad/Marketing campaign. I had some internal Gillette docs talking about the psychological sticking points or "targets" for the campaign.

There wasn't any "throw shit on the wall and see what sticks" about it to that campaign. It was a masterfully crafted piece of manipulation that was hugely successful. It wasn't just a bunch of guys setting around going "Hey lets make a cool fucking add that really gets their attention." There were all sorts of targets ID'ed by the campaign such as needs of belonging, appeals to emotions, appeal to the early adopters (i.e. the "superior" technology that went into designing the blade etc). There was no accident it was as successful as it was.

woulduliketonomoar wrote:There wasn't any "throw shit on the wall and see what sticks" about it to that campaign. It was a masterfully crafted piece of manipulation that was hugely successful. It wasn't just a bunch of guys setting around going "Hey lets make a cool fucking add that really gets their attention." There were all sorts of targets ID'ed by the campaign such as needs of belonging, appeals to emotions, appeal to the early adopters (i.e. the "superior" technology that went into designing the blade etc). There was no accident it was as successful as it was.

the mach 3 fucking rules though i shaved with an electric shaver for about 14 years until that thing came along, you have to change the blade like once every 3 months and even if you have a thick beard and let it grow out to homeless man length it'll work like a miracle. remember crystal pepsi? new coke? stupid amounts of money spent pimping it out and no one gave a shit about it because it sucked

George 'Hannibal' Peppard wrote:

woulduliketonomoar wrote:There wasn't any "throw shit on the wall and see what sticks" about it to that campaign. It was a masterfully crafted piece of manipulation that was hugely successful. It wasn't just a bunch of guys setting around going "Hey lets make a cool fucking add that really gets their attention." There were all sorts of targets ID'ed by the campaign such as needs of belonging, appeals to emotions, appeal to the early adopters (i.e. the "superior" technology that went into designing the blade etc). There was no accident it was as successful as it was.

the mach 3 fucking rules though i shaved with an electric shaver for about 14 years until that thing came along, you have to change the blade like once every 3 months and even if you have a thick beard and let it grow out to homeless man length it'll work like a miracle. remember crystal pepsi? new coke? stupid amounts of money spent pimping it out and no one gave a shit about it because it sucked

The Mach 3 was/is an overpriced piece of shit.

Get a real mans razor - double edge safety razor.

George 'Hannibal' Peppard wrote:

woulduliketonomoar wrote:There wasn't any "throw shit on the wall and see what sticks" about it to that campaign. It was a masterfully crafted piece of manipulation that was hugely successful. It wasn't just a bunch of guys setting around going "Hey lets make a cool fucking add that really gets their attention." There were all sorts of targets ID'ed by the campaign such as needs of belonging, appeals to emotions, appeal to the early adopters (i.e. the "superior" technology that went into designing the blade etc). There was no accident it was as successful as it was.

the mach 3 fucking rules though i shaved with an electric shaver for about 14 years until that thing came along, you have to change the blade like once every 3 months and even if you have a thick beard and let it grow out to homeless man length it'll work like a miracle. remember crystal pepsi? new coke? stupid amounts of money spent pimping it out and no one gave a shit about it because it sucked

I miss Crystal Pepsi.
I do not drink soda pop fizzle drank (what ever you want to call it) any more, but if it came out, I might make an exception.

As with the mach, I didn't buy it despite the ads trying to get me and everyone else to buy. I look at that crap and thought "Dude 8 dollars for a razor, hell no!".
I did have to buy it one time cause their was no other option and I needed to shave pronto, and it is a good product. I still won't buy it because of the price tag. El Cheapo disposables are all I need.

I guess the people they are aiming for are the 18 to 30 demographic. The age range that tend to spend money like its burning a hole in their pocket? After a certain age, the idea "budgeting is a good idea" thing starts to sink in. Then again, I do not watch tv.

Could it be I do not watch TV thus not effected by the ads, or could it be I got older and wiser? Could it be both?
What do you think?

There wasn't any "throw shit on the wall and see what sticks" about it to that campaign. It was a masterfully crafted piece of manipulation that was hugely successful. It wasn't just a bunch of guys setting around going "Hey lets make a cool fucking add that really gets their attention." There were all sorts of targets ID'ed by the campaign such as needs of belonging, appeals to emotions, appeal to the early adopters (i.e. the "superior" technology that went into designing the blade etc). There was no accident it was as successful as it was.

I would like to see something that explains the science and details behind that, especially about Mach 3. I am always interested in how people influence others, advertising included.

woulduliketonomoar wrote:

George 'Hannibal' Peppard wrote:

woulduliketonomoar wrote:There wasn't any "throw shit on the wall and see what sticks" about it to that campaign. It was a masterfully crafted piece of manipulation that was hugely successful. It wasn't just a bunch of guys setting around going "Hey lets make a cool fucking add that really gets their attention." There were all sorts of targets ID'ed by the campaign such as needs of belonging, appeals to emotions, appeal to the early adopters (i.e. the "superior" technology that went into designing the blade etc). There was no accident it was as successful as it was.

the mach 3 fucking rules though i shaved with an electric shaver for about 14 years until that thing came along, you have to change the blade like once every 3 months and even if you have a thick beard and let it grow out to homeless man length it'll work like a miracle. remember crystal pepsi? new coke? stupid amounts of money spent pimping it out and no one gave a shit about it because it sucked

The Mach 3 was/is an overpriced piece of shit.

Get a real mans razor - double edge safety razor.

oh no i can't afford $13 in shaving supplies per year i'll take the chance i'm getting jewed out of $3 for something that i already know works like gangbusters when every other straight razor i tried sucked shit and didn't give me a close shave at all

Indie Cred wrote:

Mister Han Man wrote:

Indie Cred wrote:you guys are retarded. For every one sucessful ad campaign there are a ton that failed.

Why is that important?

proves that your whole "tell people they need what they don't need" is flawed. Advertising is like throwing shit on a wall and seeing what sticks.

needs are inherent, wants are manufactured. salesmen are in the business of want creation, not need filling.

nearly everyone in the first world has their immediate needs taken care of by default ( ). you think anyone needs an iPod or any other piece of trendy bullshit? not bloody likely.